5.
    to the Commanding General. I shared this with him for varied reasons - first, that he
    should know; that he could have information. Of course, them had to he coordination on
    the Division staff headquarters - the G-L is responsible for materiel . supplies and so
    forth, getting them, and things of that son i8 his responsibility. I Imposed to the G-1
    that I, as division chaplain, go ahead and work out appropriate religious services for
    these people. A staff was already arming on this. It had been delegated to the Division
    engineer the responsibility for surveying certain appropriate fields and making them burial
    grounds add laying Usen out with precision as accurately as they are at Arlington Cemetery
    or any other Cemetery in the world that I have seen. Qne interesting thing -- the engineer
    digging those graves - drafted, you might call it - directed that numbers of the civilian
    community each be assigned one grave to dig. and the mayor Hug a grave and the Jupiter
    dug a grave and that was the labor means of gettirg these graves dug. Met to got back to
    my part in it, we did decide to go ahead and arrange appropriate religious cerotteE, which
    were conducted.
    Q. You conducted the services at the stop, at Aaabbelln?
    A. got at the concentration damp. de conducted them t think at three different places. It
    was decidea not to bory all these victims in one place, but three different localities.
    Aaether thers was not ~uffirient ground without tearing dook, a building or something, what
    the deciding factor in that was, I don't enow. I didn't figure in thot deci~ion.
    Q. Were the civilians, the German civilians, at the services that you mHduoted?
    A. Multitudes were.
    Q. Multitudes .... who gathered tbem?. How did they gather at the kites of these sersib"?
    A. Just person to person. We got the word cut add it spread.
    Q. And the soldiers made base that they would be there? They had no choice or they bad a
    choice,
    A. They had all the choice they wanted. They were  ula, prior to the service, the mayor of
    Wbobbelin was ordered W came over and go through the camp and see the conditions that had
    been with him; to being with him such people as he desired for the rest of the delegation
    - we made sure on that basis. We - by saying 'We" I mean a few of us chaplains - ad Get

    




    6.
    order, But invited the pastor of the large and influential St. PAuVs Church in Sch,rein
    to V down. Nben he was told about this, he said, "You're exaggerating. It can't as
    that bad.
    Q. Did he know anything about it at all -- that it existed?
    A. I think he knew it was there, but didn't know the conditions any mare than you know the ceen-
    ditiond of the jail downtown. Of course, I'm sure you wouldn't find a comparable situation.
    But it's perhaps partIV under9tandable how the German people bid not have a oompiete, and
    intimate information as to everything that went on in the concentration camps reduced that
    information was kept form them. Of course, it leaked out; but the immediate reaction of
    many people was that they are vust exaggerating this for propaganoa purposes - it can't be
    that bad. 4P,11, our Uhdpl,in Huncley was talking to the factor of this I.rJe chu-ch and ....
    Q. Chaplain Handley?
    k. H-U-N-D-L-S-Y. And he was a pardon of few surge and more action, so he said, "Sao in a
    Jeep. me'll take you down there and show ycu.s And he did, And he wrote out a statement
    and read it to his congregation the following Sunday, of which I have a copy.
    Q. You do have a copy. May we see that copy?
    A. Yes. Set me give you a little added background picturx3 backing up in our interview, you
    asked me about the conditions at the camp. Before I got to the camph going down them,
    about 2 or 3 miles from the casp, I noticed a dead horse lying in the ditch. Vaether he
    died farm exhaustion or what, I don't grow. But a few hours later, returning to my head-
    quarters, there was no horse there - but the skeleton was there. The thing that had hap-
    pened to its body was that the prisoners that had escaped bad, literally, clawed with their
    hands the flesh off that horse and ate it.
    Q. Did you see any dead prisoners - were there any dead prisoners seen around the horse area?
    A. I didatt see them there, but ....
    Q. Of course, it could have been fatal to these prisoners U have done something like that....
    ingested the raw meat and certainly not to be able to tolerate it and expire as a result.
    A. Bight. I've never been so hungry or in danger of starvation, but I ban easily trading that

    




    7,
    for a person as totallo, starved, they would have to take mall bites first into their
    3yhtwm~ As we mentioned, these bodies lying event on the ground - uld, there also must
    have been 50 to 7y corpses in what had been the latriese just about
    some of them nude, some of them witla rags of clothes hanging on them. There had been
    some burled in a mass pit with . The reaction Do this
    was to disinter them and burs, these in separate graves. In doing that, there was no way
    to determine who was Christian, who was Jewish - so the best information we could get
    was to the effect that thev were perhaps a third Jewish; so we put the first grave a
    areas, the second grave a cross, and the third one a star of David and that sequence
    right on. Many laws have Creases on their graves and amer Christians have a star of
    David - that was the best we could do.
    here you present when the civilians; dug the graves?
    I don$t recall in the early stages, yes - I was there.
    C. The service that you conducted ... youconducted the service as a Presbyterian ... was there a
    Jewish chaplain there or a Catholic? Were there various examinations there at the time
    that you conducted? Was it a shared type of service or were you the only one there from
    the Chaplaincy when the burial services were conducted?
    A. Leading up to an answer to that question, wal of course, throughout the war conducted ser-
    vicas for our own dead - killed in action - and we had always assigned a Jewish chaplain
    to conduct one mass service for any Jewish men, who had been killed that bay or those few
    days before the services wave conducted. We also had a Roman Catholic chaplain for Called-
    lic burial sernaoe and we had a Protestant chaplain conduct the ~ Protestant service.
    And we did that same thing in connection will these services for the vtootims of Nazi atrn-
    cities in the concentration came, except that instead of three services, we had four. We
    had Catholimc, Jewish, and we had a service in both English and in German, rotestant.
    Q. Do you remember the reactions of the civilians at the time of the service?
    4. 1 recall and chagrin. Yould be interested in this: s 'small civilian clergyman,
    just a short time before the service was to begin, here to me and said that he would like
    to take Pam in the service. Well, beat should my answer have been .... you tell me?

    




    8.
    Q. He wanted to take pact in conducting the service?
    A. Yes - or make a statement.
    Q. Make a statement at the time of the service  an  an, I think I would have said, syes,
    but I would like to hear your statement."
    A. 'dell, I asked you because I haven't decided yet whether I made the right decision or not,
    after these move than ~ Years. I said to hin~ this: I said "I appreciate Your interest
    and concern. You, individually, no doubt are not to blame for this; but the sermon Church
    has act conducted proper services for these people. We will see to it that such services
    are conducted. After our services are over, you can conduct as many services as you want
    to; say as men as You want tn." That seemed to satisfy him. I don't know just how I
    could interject him into the service when we had competent clergymen there to do it. I
    didn't want to deny him entirely but told him that Ana se were through, he could conduct
    all the se rvi ces he wanted to.
    I can see above that was a feasible answer, certainly. Were you them when he conducted
    the service after you wore finished? Did he, is fact, make a statement after all of you
    were finirhed~
    A. I pressame, he did - 1 was not there.
    Q. Did you talk to this gentleman bur farther? About his reautiong to what had happened?
    A. Va.
    Q. S,, them was really no way of knouring what he knew and how he reacted to what he saw.
    A. I can tell you quite a bit about the reaction of this pastor of the church isi Schumin.
    C. (Tape is stopped for a moment add then regaws) : We Am looking through some papers here.
    A. Mesa papers are merely a translation of a statement made by the pastor of the St. Paallc
    Iflourch in Schemer, Germany, as ta a visit he made to the doebbelin Concentraion jump.
    Q. You may want te, read that statement to us .... is it , very long lose
    A. A page and a half.
    A page and a half .... all right, then - weI may want to just copy it and include it with our
    archival materials if that Is okay with you.
    A. All right.

    




    9.
    In essence, I can sense that he said lose very important things ah, what would you have
    selected out of that Do be really worthwhile auditory material, rather than just reading it?
    A. Well  _
    Q. 15 there anything in there that surprised yft?
    A. Not particularly. He does not seek to whitewash the Goodman people; but he does try to
    establish the point that, although makr of the Gemans as he says did met know the horrible
    conditions that exl sted, they Cannot as a nation escape responsibility for letting a situa-
    tion like that grew up within the goverment over a period of years ... and come ts a place
    wbeft life woLld near so little art People would be so helpless to change the regime of
    the terrible powers that were not only allowing this to go on, but causing it to go on. ee
    calls for rededication on the part of the people... to building a hearses government and
    better lives. He also makes a statment -- not related W this ~edebbelin, but related to
    his visits to a member of prisoners and during the days following this?
    the reactions of those people add their "dervidens toward mligion and how it changed things
    faced the opposition on the part of Some, finally to apathy, and finally ~ acceptance --
    and than finally to grasping hold of a religious faith that helped sustain and Carry them
    into the future.
    Are ve talking about Civilians now that Changed their feelings of religion? Did they
    you mentioned before them was some civilian reaction that you had heard Concerning
    civilians was that in the religious aspect Concerning the civilians you spoke tco~ You
    said there were some interesting stories about the German civilians frm the time you were
    in Woeftelin and Lunsig_ and the area. Aar were those? Do you remsmer what it was
    you were going to share with us~
    A. Enntion of German civilians? I don't recall exastly what we Bud in mind at that time.
    Q. Well, maybe if we go in, it pill come back to you.
    A. You might be interested - I hn just soft of jumpixg; around a little bit 
    Q. That's okay.
    A. But yon might be interested in the stance that was erected at the entrance to these burial
    gibes. Etched in stone, was the folloscing: Here lie the bodies of 184 victims ofNazi

    




    12.
    A. If they raise the question and ask me anything about it, I ~d be glad to talk with than
    Q. The Holocaust film that was shown on TV - did you see that film?
    A. I believe we turned that on after it had started.
    0. Din you see any partof it at all. There wpm a mrie~ of three or four showings - did you
    see any part of that?
    A. I don't believe so - I'm sorry
    Q~ Did you discuss this material before today....
    A. This  materia19
    Q. Well, what we're talking about now, Ahat was the last time you talked about your rxper~-
    arm at the pump, at 'doebbelin? ~ you parameter? Do you remember at all wtom you spoke
    about it before'
    A. I Coulon Ft pinpoint a date .... it's just the subject of conversation occasionally if some-
    body might raise a question about experiences during the war .... without pinpointing .......
    Q. park, general war experiences  which brings me W mother question  we had found
    that some of our respondents view this as war; the soldiers, their fellow friends being
    killed and evervi:hIng very offer., and then their encounter with a coup of this na-
    ture - itl~ all one other experience Of the war. Do you separate your experience for your-
    self of war and killing as opposed to seeing what you saw at ocebbelish? Was that the same
    overall war experience or was them a separation in your mind between the two deaths? Do
    you remember any such reaction at ally
    A. tioll, it migbt seem strange to you for me to my that I could accept and carry through with
    a religious ministry to our casualties, upended end dead, more easily and with liass horror
    than I amid consent a service for these poor victims of the concentration cash - because
    I knew that killing in war was inevitable and it was inevitable that we lose men ... terrible
    that such as the case, but it is .... but it wasn't ineal table that people die in % concentra-
    tion map. There's no purpose to it except mumbess on the part of the leaders that would
    not only allow, but direct a thing like that. I felt the horror ano futility of that Rsp,,ct
    of the war, I thick more so than the aspect of our own casualties, Aich wers, terrific. The

    




    13.
    Division that I was with, for instance, had a 150% casualties. Sometimes people say, lHow
    did yen have a 15~?` Well, the answer is quite simple - we'd have 50 men killed and 50
    live bodies would he sent in to take their places. It was terrific we started out path
    about 15,000 men in our Division, had a little over 20,000 wounded, and around 2,000 killed
    - including replacements, of course.
    Q. Her is ugly .... ahhh, you're a Presbyterian minister .... your views, in terms of the Holocaust
    per as - dr, ran find it a religious question - an, not a question, but a religious invelve-
    ment, or a political involvment? How do you view the horrors of the Holocaust - especially
    as a man of the cloth'
    A. well, there are same people who ask how can a clergyman serve In a military situation that
    Involves death, killing? Wes it not put us in the place of being propagandists, of trying
    to get the blessing of the church of Ged an killing people? Hot at all. Instead of being
    a ~smwdgesr, as some people thick the chaplain would have to be, I think the opposite to a
    very strong degree is true wtid most chaplains -- that they are there, hot because they
    love war or want to give a religious clasping upon war, but because they know that them
    will be desperate need and the Clexreh pill not forsake these men in their hour of need.
    His presence there is not placing a blessing on war as a chaplain. I think I hate war more
    they My counterpart in civilian life, who has never seen first Hand Its horrors.
    Q. Do you view it as a much "eater Jewish problem - the Holocaust - as a plan to annihilate
    the Jews of ~drmpa? Is that a part of your frame of reference of the Holocaust or was it
    just a political travesty on humudnity? How do you ... de yen view it as a Jestsh problem at
    all,
    A. bd~re getting on delicate ground now  I think 
    Q. No - at the risk of unpopular opinions, we value "or opinion very, very man.
    A. I think it is abhorrent test a tyrant - call his came Hitler or whatever you sent to - can
    become curb a maniac that he would set out on a desperate Pffort to annihilate the Jewish
    people. The same would be true of any other people. Put it is certainly sidering to the
    depths of decency trying to exterminate an individual or a race just because of their racial
    background. This just harelbr a Civilized society to grasp the falt - but it is a fact.
    Z. Do You think it could happen againy

    




    1h.
    Kull, I certainly trust and pray not. to pick up ony morninA newspaper and read it, you
    wouldn't be too ptarsdrci.~ed to see anything happen again. I'm not predicting that it will
    and I certainly think that we are more same than we were then, but it's an appalling fact
    to thick of what one tommat with military weapons could do with the world today. we hope not.
    Do you feel that the Church can play a pact in helping to educate about the H01GCaust - and
    in each a way, assist in never having it happen again?
    I think the Church cost. I think the Church does - perhaps inadequately, but the Church
    certainly is concerned about great social problems and political problems I'm getting
    on dangerous smeared there because I do not think the Church should get in and try to influ-
    ence a political decision, except as it influences through individuals. If we can send our
    man of real integrity to our legislative chambers, through them, better life will evolve.
    Q. How do you think the Church can help in education? To prevent this .... what areas in the
    Church do you think can be instrumental in educating about the Holocaust? From the pulpit,
    the classroom - in terms of something specific?
    A. I think partly through their only educational set up add through the pulpit - through the
    preemption of international understanding and friendship. Actually, getting into our homes
    - the students from other countries. So often, a student will come to this country Add
    never get inside an Asoerican home - never come to know Americans. If we can build up an
    undentanding on a personal level, it multiplies itself. It's a slow add tedious and big
    process, but one that's imperative I think, that the Churoh do a lot =me than they are on
    the human, mer~onal level as well as in the higher circles. In higher circles, the politi-
    pal decisions, of course, pill not be made a the Ghurch, but the Dourch - without taking
    issue on a particular thing - can and should influence decisions of the policy makers by
    promoting integrity add honesty and unselfishness and openews, at. fast might sound a
    little naive, but it has got to be individual to individual.
    Q. One to one type of contact?
    A. A lot of it.
    I I d like to get back to your wife and yourself for a moment in lesson of your experipac a when
    you were in Woebbelin - to share with both of you some of her reactions and family type of

    




    15.
    A. Shall we call hers
    Q. Yes, please.
    (Tape Stops for a moment while Mrs. Wiliman is called. It resumes again.)
    Q. Mrs. Wildemps, You were Reversed] Wildmants wife at the time of his experience in the Army
    and we'd like to get Your point of view and come of your feelings, came Of Your memories
    of what happened at the time that Rev. 4iladman was there; what he wrote to you - some of
    the feelinge that may have been expressed as a result of his experience at ~ebbelin Con-
    centration Oman, more specifically - some of your reactions and, perhaps, some of the re-
    actions of come of the people you may have shared this information with at the time that
    he was experiencing it. Can you take yourself back in time a little bit and just kind of...
    F. Well, I'll certainly try because there were very difficult days. We bad two daughters
    when Albert left - one was 8 and one was 12 - and when be came home, they were virtually
    green girls. few was off in college. But kmay were by salvation during that period -
    when they Here very blue, I had to be very brave; reandr a time June said: Mother, why did
    Daddy have to go? I had the best Daddy of anyone. why does he have to gone sa lorgle ssid
    I said: dell, Tons, the" are things that are his career. Some of these things we don't
    understand, but maybe some day, we All - and to think of the blessing that he is to so
    many. You know Daddy and you grow his attitude about service, about health, giving the
    Invice that boys need - the" dear soldiers that are there fighting. He All love than
    all out of difficulty; he All never condemn them in things - he All love them all out of
    difficulty. So we were taught lots - Jane musch more so than the older daughter - I think
    she held hers in, because that's Peggy's nature. But Janie's outgoing and the one that
    always thought she had to entertain eveneond and things like that. So, on - there were
    never good days .... we would try to make than good days, but we wares concerned constantly;
    whereas the man in the battle, there act days when he's safe and he known it, but then
    there are so many days when we don't know that he is safe because he can't reveal where he
    is. We would read once in a while about the ~th Division and anat they sees participating
    in, but by the time we got the news, that was old.
    Q. That was old news.

    




    19.
    English and wa could care less. We, as a penple, I think are not so interested in too
    many languages. But they are very of course, they know seven - many of them.
    No that was your experience With the German civilians.
    W. Yes. And it was delightftl. I enjoyed every hour I was in Germany. They are very ansdi-
    plate, industrious, thrifty, extremely clean, a lover of children, flowers, dogs... and
    they date for their dogs. They never let a half-breed dog live. They destroy them imme-
    diately because they want only the pure strain of dogs. I know one of our friends took a
    dog to the vet and they asked what kind of dog it was and it Was a mixture. They pollen
    it an American dog. (Much laughter from the wife.)
    Q. chat's an interesting statement about pure bred, because so men of their experiments on
    human being5 was based on the pure bred Aryan.
    A. Christina has in Germany frem 1954 to 157. In other Words, I came back from Germany after
    the Bar to the States in 345. 1 did towns in the States and Home and was assigned back
    to nedm~ in 1954 at Which time Christina joined me.
    Now, van must spruce me for one moment - we're doing to get back to your Iiihanu.
    d. ON, I'll be at an to.
    Q. Ahhh - you have follow-up experiences than in Germaine?
    A. I was in the Army 20 years.
    Q. What happened when you went back to Germany? After you had these experiences and yotOre
    able to talk to some of the German people .....
    A. Aell, I went back under totally different circumstances, of course. I had an office in
    the I.G. Farben Building in Frankfort and we sent up some semblance of a schedule of
    services. of course, Adispomm during combat you couldn't say there would be a service
    at 11:00 o~clocdk, Sunday service....
    Q. There~s no schedule during combat.
    up
    A.. In other words, you'd rw~on an old tawas emplacement and had a vary brief Informal service.
    W. Held put his altar on the back end of a Jeep or a track or whatever was available under an
    apple tree or wherever.
    A. This time I was assigned What we Would call in the military the Northern Area Common. her
    American area of responsibility was divided into these geographic areas - the Northam, the

    




    20.
    western, add the Heidleburg area. The area for which I was responsible in matters pertain-
    ing to religion and morals extended virtually from the MEace, River on throest; east W the
    Geconew border ~east German border - Czechoslovakia, etc.)3 End north, a little bit north of
    _. T~,t uas the soon, To assist, I had anywhere from about 50 to 65 chaplains from
    time to time - Protestant, Catholic, add Jewish. I got out and visited these chaplains add
    conducted confessormes for them add helped with Headquarters getting out a directive pertain-
    ing to religious service or whatever the topic may have been.
    In the process of doing that, did you ever discuss the war years with these people .... where
    they were, how they felt?
    A. I had no ob~ectikcn to discussing it if the occasion oaneup. One of the most interesting
    discussions about that was with Martin Nbasuller (sp.?).
    Q. ON .....
    A. You seem to know bim...
    Q. Save heard the came, yes.
    4. He was one of the few men of whom Hitler was afraid or else he would have bear executed
    years before, but he wszn~t. And after the war, at least while we were there, we would in-
    vite Neubmiler occasionally to speak at same Chapel gatherIng - more frequently at a dinner
    menting conducted by one of the chaplains at a regular Sunday service. 1 would occasionally
    pick him up in a military vehicle and take him to the place where the service souls be held
    and take him back afterwards.
    Q. You knew him very well.
    A. I knew him through that. I asked ... I asked his opinion one day of the future of dust And
    gest Germany. Will they ever get together? He said he didn't see scar giving on the pact
    of the Soviets or a lessenoinR of their influence in East Germany. Neither bid he see azc~r
    forced reunion of the Went sponsored by the USA. It's sort of one of those two Immovable
    objects. He said the German people did not like that divided nation permanently and so he
    said it was very easy to envision that at soma future date some person in East or in West
    germany - not mixed - probably in Cast Germany - some per5on gaining some influence and
    getting up on a godastal some day and ma1piew a fiery speech and enthusinC the swuman people
    and telling them: Se're not Host Germans, we're not shut Germans - we're 0,nmaps; and we

    




    21.
    will at the beginning of another war start by this ultra false patriotism. I said to Dr.
    Nedimuller, I'Maen might that happen?" He said, "I don't know - ten,fifteen, twenty, twenty-
    five years" Wall, his mesa, fortesdately, was wrora; on that, but unfortunately 
    doere saw he during the war years?
    A. He was in two or three different concentration camps. The lack was Dachau.
    Q.  We written material?
    W. Ob, yes - yes, he has.
    A. Has experiences at Dachau, he said no could look out his cell window add see corpses hareg-
    ing on comes out in the yard and he never knew whether he would be the Dust or not. He
    ads living order that suspense day after day.
    Q. Nowohe challenged the Nazi regime?
    W. Ob, yes.
    A. Yes, he spoke out against 
    Q. Wtvat about those that were there that aid not speak out against it? The religious chap-
    lains -- did you ever speak to them?
    A. Wall, I talked to some of those people. Actually, one of my jobs was, in the latter days
    of the war - renalicing the need for German pastors serving in the churches - many of the
    pastors bad served in the military as riflemen, not as chaplains, but as riflemen - - and
    set through choice because they were drafted. Unlike our country - we didn't draft clergy-
    men. Every clergyman in Use Arry was a volunteer - 100% non-drafted. In other words, our
    military takes the point that you u1nouldn't order the church representatives in fighting.
    get ther5 they had many cleragoden serving as rifleman becanse they were drafted. We felt
    that, as they were released as prisoners, the best thing we oasid do wita thern was clear
    them politically - make sum they were not agents to fight against us - prepare them, get
    them released, and put chosen in a church - have them resume their church were. hany of
    these clergymmen with wism I talked took the attitude that they were helpless to as any-
    thing effeGtiV8 to change the political situation that had arisen in Germany. And so they
    faced this moral dilestax: %all I compromise my own stand in it or shall I take an adamant
    stand for what I believe to be the truth and traditionally the fafth of nor people add
    wini up with my head cut off? Or shall I give In a little hem and them and be able to

    




    22.
    survive physically and maybe be branded as a person who didn't have entrigh stamina to age-
    procrise; to stand for the ftgbt - but at least live and be able to maybe later mart some
    influencei Well, before we assured them, I think we ought to look in our own soared no
    say what would our mention be. It's hard to tell - apart from the situation itself, it~s
    a hypothetical question. But going back to Neimmiler, I remember him telling an expari-
    ence of a young lad - 20 or 21 - a prisoner in Dachau oomoong to him latest eight, midnight
    or To, and he says; Dr. Neimullxr, I'm stated for execution in the warning. I would like
    for you to serve me Communion. Well, put yourself U the place of a clergyman asked to
    serve Commission for a man who is to be executed the next day, when you don't have any wine,
    you don't he" any wafers or brand. You don't tell him you coon't as it - wersainly mt.
    IdBat Walmillar did gas he used water instead of wine or grape juice, which I think the Lord
    accosted just as readily, add he gas able to find a little crumms left over from his mad-
    Bach enough that day. That was his broad. An - back to this concentration damp, we should
    Add for the record that it was one of the smaller risky and not very well known because it
    was mall end because it was relatively new. shan the bombing of Berlin got so intense
    that the building was literally being destroyed, the occupants of a prison in Berlin were
    marthed North toward the Baltic Sea and finally stopped at this place at doorbells. On
    the way, many, of them were too weak physically to walk up there, They would maybe fall
    down and the guards would simple got a bullet through them and go on anc~ get rid of thm.
    Q. How many people were in thi3 ounp?
    A. Approximately, TO .... well, ti ere were I think ~,012 is the nusber that Tricks in ro, Dina.
    0. It's hard to judge ro'117 verr often.
    A. '-ore than 500 had died in the month or six weeks they had been there.
    The Bosoms I looked at in dachington, they gbadn't have any specific numbers on name of
    the records. They varTr so considerably.
    A. It was right at 3, 000. 1 remember a little over 500 had died since they got them. I can
    read you the comments written a little closer to the date of these experiences if you'd
    like.
    Q. Are those your commentse
    A. Yang.

    




    26.
    emissars to lecture to the men an politice one sell some of the perverted notorious and
    teachings to them. ehat I'm trying to say is they were political advocates more so than
    clergymen.
    Q. Be you question it -- their ability to become political advocates and....
    A. Certainly.
    Q. Bid You confront any of them with that when You returned to Germany as to how they were
    able to be that. We discussed the fact that they decided they would rather and
    live, and who now we to judge -- and I'm not judging; I'm just sort of interested in .....
    A. I can answer you that by relating an experience In Czecboslovalle, not during the war Hot
    after. Christine was with me - we were there as tourists. Tbe guide that was taking us
    around was a very affable, friendly, talkative sort of fellow - the type we would like to
    have as a neighbor back in the States. He was a school teacher and he spent his summers
    while school ads clused serving as a tour guide. He spoke pretty good English - in fact,
    was fairly adept at it. Well, I felt that we had gotten to know him well enough to ask
    him if be was a member of the Communist party. I said, "Being a school teacher, I assume
    you have to be a member of the Communist Farty.e He said, "On, yes.'s And I said, Tram
    the conversations we have had, you don't impress me as really ushering tolheir ideals - you
    seem to be a pretty decent soft of a fellow, respect the rights of others, open-minded, and
    friendly with others. You..youc seem to be a Christian from the views you express. How can
    yen reconcile the two? Don't you have to teach in the schools courses in Communism? How do
    you manage to do that? It's a dual kind of life, isn't it?, He said, "Maybe so. I q,,,e to
    be a Communist in school, but I try to be a Christian the rest of the time.t~
    W. At here .... yes, he said We teaching his children....
    C. ~nd you feel the same would have had to hold true for these German clergyman?
    A. It's sort of a parodied. situation. In other words, as we mentioned a while ago, if you
    know that your life depends on it and getting something to eat depends on your political
    stance - how are You going W face it?
    W. k 3:X A.M. Drunk on the door to come and take wife and family away -- never tol be seen
    acain, ~ou know. Thae,, what one of them told us in one coup in &at Berlin whan we were

    




    2P.
    when I was chairman of welfare for our club, the Frankfort Women's Club. be asked how
    they could stand such conditions as where they sure. I don It know how many hundreds in a
    big warehouse and the beds were - it was doubled up for beds - just as close as they Could
    be to each other.... just a little aisle to go in. And in frart of the bed would be their
    little bundle - all that they had escaped with. They said, we can ~o tnik OR 2 )-cause Ile
    know tonight there will be no 3 0. breack on Our door and all of us go. That's how we marm
    do it." You see, it was the better class that was getting out of East Germany to come into
    the best. They risked everything they had. They risked their life getting over, but they
    Came - on the water and every other way, you know. So there they were - wu have pictures of
    the. children we took there in that camp. is had our car with us because we had driven up
    from Frankfort and, on, those childral's eyes Topped like this when they saw the car. They
    hung argued it and Albert said, %Cld you like a ride Oregon in It?" And they got in... as
    many as could be packed.... and it was a big car. Add I know they talked about it forever.
    This was in the fifties?
    beak. . . it was awfull! PaId you Bee, when those people escaped - now you being a journalist,
    you, if you bad to escape, maybe you would not carry your credentials; you'd get something
    else that was more valuable. ThatIn the way many of the scientists, the doctors, teachers,
    lawyers, other professional people - they left without any evidence Of their profession. is
    in these camps, they had to stay there until there was a place open for them in another
    city or down the road sommy place or some place else - because the Germans wouldn't let any
    of than out until they BoIIms placed in something.
    0. Now these were coming from hast Oessany.
    W East Germany. over 4,000 came in the week before we got there .... and, an( .... it makes
    nor blood rum. One never knows what air is until they have seen some a' these hovels ....
    Q. Hopefully, we can learn from the pact not to repeat it.
    W. You know, it 
    I don't work to Interrupt you, but before we get to the end Of this tape, do we didn't
    cover any of the present political situations - Cambodia, Bangladesh, in terms of inhumanity
    to humanity. Have you thought that any of those present situations 4 ight of what you saw

    




    2S.
    in the past, World War IT, Mae signs? Were there ever any thoughts of connotation de-
    this human destructiond
    A. Well, there are certainly unfortunate similarities in the case,,
    Q. Similarities U terms of human destruction or in fares of politically being able to assist?
    A. The situation in Cambodia, for instance, with the futile sea deedless execution of then-
    sands and thousands of its citizens; people against their own people - things of that sort.
    Q. Do you view it as a similar situation as the Holocaust? Bangladesh, Cambodia - would you
    say it's a similar... ?
    A~ I would say it is similar from the standpoint of painting up the horreark of war and the
    futility of war.
    Q. GO you have any difference in your views as a different situation as compared to the
    Holocaust?
    A. If you are speaking in terms of the picture, Holocaust ......
    etc~
    Q. No - I'm not referring to text at all. I'm referring to the ooncentrahan campe, A DO yen
    see a difference between the era of the concentration comes add the episodes ....
    A. Well, unfortunately, there are many areas of brutality and indecency, inexcusable perse-
    cution and killing of multitudes of people in our modern age.
    W. Did you tell her about the one in Korea? The concentration. . Ahe enclosure where they bad
    so many thousands .... in Korea. Did you tell her anything about that?
    Q. Was that a similar same type of experience that you had ba Korea?
    A. No. I could tell you about same of the people that were imprisoned in the South Korea
    in the and some of the horours  but Christina has in mind, I guess, me
    going with 
    W. Yes, getting that chaplain to go ir.
    A. Jet me inject this. It~z out of sequence here, Out I sm going to inject this in. It's
    another note from the diary 2oth of May, 1945 -(This is a few weeks after the burial, etc.
    is over.) Granted seven days leave, plus travel ti~ by order issued yesterday. Started
    to United Kingdom in company with GhaPlain Daniel Jordan of the 28th Infantry. mike
    Adsms book ar by Jeep, picked to Dan Jordan at and went to for a plane.

    




    2q .
    None available. That would he a military plane) Went to - . None available, but
    caught a ride With a pilot of a 07, Who was going back to _ LII pick up a lead of
    recaptured Belgi an Ns. (They had been prisoners of the Germans Need now that the war was
    over they were being released). Took on ~ at and started for Brussels. Weather
    too bad to land so turned back toward dollved add lanced at Holland for the
    night. This city is the home of Phillips Radir. One Belgian, As had been a PIP five
    years, said that "For us, there are still clouds." He wondered shut conditions he would
    find when he reached home, or if he had any home or any family left. (I inject that in be-
    cause it is typical of the hourpers of the poisoner, Xoilant over hie release and yet with
    tremendous anxieties add a new life to build In the years ahead).
    The realities of filing a new life that he knew 5a little about. That's true. Is tacre
    anything that we have not covered that you would like to share With of from your experioncC
    A. We covered more than I thought we would.
    Q. We safe did and it has really been very generous of your time and your strength.
    W. Would you like a copy of the 
    I would - especially the parts that you quoted to us so that if we have my difficulty with
    the transcript, we can always refer to it.
    A. This story that Christina wanted me to tell you isn't direct related to the horrors of me
    leg, but the setting is Mesa. In fart, North Korea - just outside the city of ~,
    the capital of North Korea. I served in Korea from 1946 to INS and then again soon after
    war broke out there in 50-
    Q. This is about your experience in Korea?
    A. Christina suggested that you might be Interested in a atery pertaining to a F4 camp in
    Nortb Korea just out from tme present capital of It was my privilege, as I
    may and I say It dinceraly, because it is a privilege to work among these men, who so
    desperately need a chaplain. As the lot Cover Phaplain in Korea during the first year
    or a little longer of commat in Korea - one day a very good friend of mine, Harold Been,
    came in mr, office, which at that time was m a classrom building of the old Py-
    eniversity; I bad Human Harold form a previous two year stint of service in Korea in
    1946 to 1948. fle was me jameadegat missionary serving there with civilianlate, ~

    




    id.
    And again he said, "All, these fellows are nothing; you won It get anywhere with them. You
    won't even get their attention." And old Bogo, he" a good stang of demer, said, "I'll
    bet you $10.00.11 It's thefirst time in ve, life I'd ever heard a bet made over a religious
    matter. "Bet You $10.00 that in less than five minutes time 1"11 have these prisoners
    laughing and singing and giving me complete attention." And the commandant said, "You're
    crazy." And Bogs said, "Wc1l, I may be crazy, Sir, but put up the $10.00.11 And he made
    him put up his $10.00 (laughter) I sent in with him and he handed the two $10.W to, me add
    we set up our folding field organj pars of the chapla:Bn Is equipment, and nor driver was a
    good organist and without saying a word, he started playing.
    0. Oh, you brought an organ to the, to the, uh .....
    A. yes, set it up out in the open field. Immediately, everybody looked in that direction.
    If Yen are a poisoner hitting in a muddy field and some music starts, area It you going to
    have enough interest to wonder what it's all about. Add, Immediately, they looked in that
    direction and then Bear told them a skery in the Korean language - a joke. It must have
    been a good one because eve7body just roareb; met a minute had passed by Audi he had their
    attention and he had them laughing already. Man he Weiss John 3.16. '-Am many of you
    know that?" And a scattering of hands want up. "All eight - yes say it. I And this fel-
    law said it and he gave him a copy of the New Testament as a peasant. You should have
    seen the Incpressions on the faces of many of them winting a copy of that; add he passed
    out several. As wa left, old Bogo said, 11*11, 1 never made $10.00 so easy in V life."
    And we handed the Commandant his $10.00 back, of course, and Ago his $10.00 - But the
    Commandant said, -'Well, come again." Bado said, "I will, Sir." Well, that was the begin-
    ring of one of the most tremendous religious activities that has ever taken piece anywhere.
    You perhaps recall reading in the newspapers in 1953 of the thousands of North Breach
    prisoners, who chose not to go back home when the liberations allowed them to return home
    and our prisoners in the North to came back South. l1aere were literally thousands and the
    main factor in their decision was HarrldBogo and a few others, who were later associated
    with him. The input, which he had - met in saying r'DonIt go home" but in saying, "Here is
    the word of God and here is the way of life that You if you want to." Now, politics'.

    




    33.
    views - Top didn$t say a thing about politics; but he orgamized bible classes among the
    groups and, literally, many, many testaments were word out from passing them around to one
    another.
    ~Micda "no of proven the saint that ~,vu done trying to make before - in terms of minis-
    terial influence Offects doe's political levels, sort of andund the band add not directly.
    That's an interesting story .
    W. How many wood in th ore? 3,000?
    A. In that particular camp, I think about that - but in some of these camps later in the
    Smath, there were 10, 12, or 15 thousand. I had the privilege of giving a scratch Is one
    of the big damps down South later on through %go as an interpreter.
    I really think we could sit hen a good part of the day. You have so many interesting
    insights and certainly experienced to share with us. I do ward; to tell you how men
    wa, appreciate your involannent and your wife's involvuent in our proujacti I'm sure it
    bill be a great asset to our project. If you should come anyone anybody else, who has
    had some experience in liberation of concentration bumps, I certainly would appreciate
    it if you would get in touch with us and to share that information with us.